02 - Redefining Success and Creativity Beyond Capitalist Expectations, with Kalyl Kadri - Transcript
This is a transcript for Episode 2 of Everybody is a Creative. Find the original shownotes and audio here.
Welcome to everybody as a creative the show we embrace. You guessed it, everyone as a creative, whether you're a business owner, a side Hustler, or just have a hobby or passion project that you love, we will be exploring creativity in all its forms and tapping into the things that keep us creative. I'm Ella, also known as Whimsicella, a copywriter who's also attempting to write her first novel and a self-identified creative from birth. I hope you'll use this place to jam with me on what it means to be a creative, even if you don't identify as one, yet.
Ella 0:02
Kal! Welcome to Everybody Is A Creative, how are you doing?
Kal 0:17
I'm very good. Thank you so much. How are you?
Ella 0:21
Yeah, I'm amazing, very excited to be doing all this. It's very, very new, very crunchy, but we're leaning into it.
Kal 0:28
We like crunchy. We like crunchy. It's an honor to be here, honestly. So thanks for inviting me over.
Ella 0:34
So the people won't know this, but we met on threads, and I feel like we've become fast thread friends. It's always nice to meet people that just really feel aligned. And that's how I felt like when I started using threads properly. I don't know about
Kal 0:50
Yeah, honestly, same with me. I feel like threads came in as such a breath of fresh air. I was so done with social media, especially Instagram, and I've been loving threads. Like, what a great place to just meet people and network and connect and just be unhinged at the end of the day, after like, a really long day of making sense and typing words, just threads is a really nice safe space at the minute. So it's good to meet you there.
Ella 1:19
I feel the same. So do you want to give a little intro to yourself for the people?
Kal 1:25
Yeah, sure. Um, so my name is Cal. I am a Brazilian, Lebanese creative. I'm currently based in Barcelona, and I'm running my own little copywriting and branding business called Words hurt. My background is a little bit all over as far as creatives go, so I've got an academic background in theater. That's kind of what most of my life was like, and slowly, over the years, I started making the transfer of where and how I was telling stories. And it's, you know, no secret that theater is not the most stable or lucrative profession to be in, and what started off as, you know, kind of a means to an end. Actually became this really fun business that I'm running with a purpose, and I'm getting to connect with super cool people and help bring these, like wonderful, really interesting projects to life. So, yeah, it's been really cool,
Ella 2:38
amazing. I love that. Yeah, one of the questions I asked before we got on the call was what some of your creative hobbies growing up, and you said about playing pretend and, you know, sheet forts and secret layers and stuff like that, which then evolved into acting and theater and writing. So shall we start there, and your, you know, entry into theater and how you then became a copywriter?
Kal 3:04
Yeah, for sure. Let's do that. So, yeah, I think as a kid, I always had a really, really active imagination. I love reading books, my grandma always says that when she'd take me out, like I would never step into this toy store, I would always had into the library or into the bookshop, and it's pretty much the same today. So I always consume stories. I love fantasy. I love high fantasy, horror, anything with a magic system, so very fantastical. And I think that just kind of translated to the way that I played, or the things that I was drawn to as a kid. And, yeah, I think my first real contact with theater was in high school and growing up a queer kid in the Middle East, and I had kind of found this safe space where I could be myself, and you know, very clearly, also surrounded by like other queer kids, but we're all very hush, hush about it. I'm sure, like some people listening, can relate, and I fell in love with theater then and there. I mean, theater is still my number one passion. I would drop everything in a heartbeat and go back to the theater. And I think it's just such a beautiful art form. It's, it's such an interesting way to to live, you know, just to be in a room with people and just exploring life, exploring each other, having conversations, putting yourself in other people's shoes, learning about different cultures, and you do research and you do movement. I feel like it's, it's a, I don't know, like a heightened state of living. I. So big ad, big advocate for theater. And so, yeah, I graduated a BA in performing arts. And straight after graduation, I was hired to teach English as a foreign language, which is not Theater, which was great and but they kind of hired me on the premise that I I sold them on the idea that I was going to use my theater skills of like improvisation and role play and communication to teach the kids the second language, um. And from there, I went to the UK to get my master's. Not learning my lesson the first time, I got a master's also in theater. So I got, I did a two year MFA in theater directing, and did a couple of we were working some fringe shows and some small, small things in London, nothing, obviously, like very worth mentioning. And straight after graduation on my masters again, did not go to work in the theater, and I kind of found myself accidentally, at the time, working as, like a creative assistant for a PR agency that used to work with luxury brands and luxury fashion and things like that. And here I found I was really good at doing this work, and I also found that I absolutely hate working for anything related to luxury and luxury clients and luxury fashion. So I stayed there for a while, kind of honing skills and learning new skills, and I think started doing some freelance work on the side, until I was ready to let go of that company, and then just worked as a freelance copywriter for a Couple of years up until now. So that's kind of sort of a long story short.
Ella 7:07
Nice, I love that. Yeah, I also love theater, but I didn't really find it until I went to university, because growing up, my mom wasn't really much of a theater person, so I just never was in that environment, but we loved movies, so we watched movies all the time. And it was only when I went to university and I wanted to do an extracurricular so I joined a drama society, and it's there that I sort of learned to really love theater. What are some of your favorite shows and musicals and things like that?
Kal 7:42
So as far as, like, my preference for shows, I feel like musical theater, for me is such a guilty pleasure and intelligence. And so I'm a big fan of the Rocky Horror Picture Show. It was one of my favorites of all time. I think Phantom of the Opera so cheesy, but I've seen it maybe five or six times on stage, like, what a soundtrack, Book of Mormon. Also, I've seen multiple times a really good one, waitress, wicked. I think I've seen most of the like, standard classics I didn't get much of a chance to see kind of like the new ones, which quite interested in singing like Avenue Q or Hadestown. I've never seen waitress on stage, which is upsetting to say. But as far as my preference of actual non musical theater, I'm really keen on experimental performances that maybe push the Convention of, what is theater? And like, what am I watching? Is this a dance show? Are people just doing really weird stuff on stage? Like, what is this really? Yeah, I just love things like that. I love a dark, really intimate, cramped theater. I love in-your-face theater. So, like, Sarah Kane is one of my favorite playwrights. So, yeah, trying to think what I've seen recently that I loved… Are you familiar with Complicity? They're a UK-based theater company, fantastic. If you haven't heard of them, do check it out. They did a show at the Barbican called The Encounter, and it was hands down the best, the best thing I've ever seen in my life. It was one of the most surreal experiences, and I know hands down that I will leave this planet not having seen anything like it. So if they ever do a rerun, take notes and go see the encounter. It’s a fantastic show.
Ella 9:51
I love that. I haven't heard of that, so I'll definitely check them out. Yeah. So have you ever had a crack at writing a play, or have you directed any plays or anything like that?
Kal 10:03
I've really minimal writing. So I think at most we've ever done is like a scene or a couple of scenes. I've never written a full length play, and I was never, I was never one to do the like the writing part. I was always more interested in the like, exploration on stage itself. I love research. I love like, doing research and finding symbolism and then figuring out ways to, like, translate this really interesting fact that I learned about, I don't know, like the human heart and like how we can translate this into stage like, I love that kind of stuff. But writing for theater itself. I never, I was never too keen on it. Writing outside of the theater, like, oh my god, really horrible emo poetry from 15 years ago, which 100% is still up on the internet somewhere. Yeah, I love that stuff. And yeah, I've directed a couple of things, some shows in university, and then one short show at Stockwell Playhouse in London, which is kind of like a group of us directors gathered to do a mini little theater festival, and we each directed a piece, so that was quite fun as well.
Ella 11:27
I love that. Yeah, you said you had a very overactive imagination as a kid, I also had a really active imagination. So I was wondering, are you an only child?
Kal 11:40
Well, yes, and no. I am an only child from my parents’ original marriage, and then I was an only child for quite a lot of years. So I think maybe I was an only child for 10 years, and then both of my parents got remarried, and I've got two half-sisters from my dad's side, and I've got two half-brothers from my mom's side, but by the time they were born, I was basically almost up and out of the house. But yes, I think so, essentially, essentially, yes, yeah.
Ella 12:21
I am fully and completely an only child, no siblings whatsoever. And, yeah, I always wonder, because I know quite a few, particularly other writers, who are also only children. And I think, that's so interesting. I think because you're spending so much time by yourself, I guess that you just kind of have to make do with your imagination and things like that.
Kal 12:45
Yeah, that's so interesting. Actually, I've never thought about that, but now that you say it, that makes absolute perfect sense, yeah, yeah.
Ella 12:54
That's really great. So I also asked what creativity means to you, and you put necessity, freedom, self-discovery, and healing, which I think are really powerful words, if you want to sort of elaborate, what comes to mind when you say those words?
Kal 13:14
I feel like creativity. I think like the act of creating in general is it's such a freeing experience, right? It's a way for you to in this creative process, discover yourself, so discover who you are and what you have to say or what you need to express, right? So this is where necessity comes in. I feel like a lot of people maybe fob off the arts or doing creative stuff. But for me, I see creativity as an absolutely integral part of living. It's a way for us to discover the world. It's a way for us to almost procreate, right? Like you're making art, it's almost like you're making children. It's really, it's a really vulnerable act. And in conjunction with, like, I know there's a lot of art therapy and a lot of drama therapy out there, which I love and I always advocate for, but I also always speak about, like, the therapeutic nature of regular theater, not like drama therapy in particular. So I was saying, just the fact of being in a room where you're all exploring, and maybe there's, there's not a wrong thing to say, because you're you're rehearsing and you're discovering things, and maybe you have less inhibitions, and you get to bond with other people. You get to connect a little bit more. There is less of maybe that fear or that shame that you have in the outside world. And I think it's the same for any kind of art form, like whether you're on stage, you know, in front of lots of people, or you're just doing a little painting. Mm. Having a glass of wine on a Saturday night at home, it is vulnerable. There's always that, at least for me, that feeling of, oh gosh, what if someone sees this? I have, I think for the most part, I had a really difficult time in that concept of making art just for art's sake, or just doing something creative, just because I need to express or I need to feel good. It doesn't need to be something that's amazing. It doesn't need to look good. It doesn't need to be good by anyone's standards, like it doesn't need to be published. You know that whole capitalism, yeah, how capitalism eats its way into the arts, but I think I'm slowly coming to terms with that, and more and more, finding ways where I can have these little acts of creativity throughout my day that don't, don't have to be connected to anything other than me feeling good, or me discovering something about myself or me, you know, getting Maybe getting some negative emotion out onto a piece of paper with, like, I don't know, a really scary scribble drawing, or something of the sort.
I came across a term recently, which is ‘multi-potentialite’, which I thought was super wanky. I was ‘Oh, this sounds so awful. What does that mean?’ Like, it has so much potential. Like, who has so much potential? It's not what it means at all. Such really bad semiotics of the word. So it's a multi-potentialite. It was this term that was coined, which basically means you're a person that has so many different interests, and you're drawn to so many different things. And I had a really big problem with this growing up, because I don't know you probably can relate, but I feel like growing up, everyone kind of tells you to get into one certain box, and you need to pick one thing that you're really good at doing, and what's your thing and not being one of those people, I always thought less of myself and like, I don't have one thing, I love doing so many different things, and I can't decide which thing I want to do. And this totally translates to, like, I don't know my hobbies and the way that I like to express myself. And it was only super recently that I discovered this and had a really illuminating conversation with someone, where I was describing this to them, and they told me, ‘Why are you turning what sounds like your biggest asset and such a blessing into something that's a curse, into a really negative point?’ Like, I love learning. I love taking up new skills. I'm a really fast learner when I put my mind to it, honestly, I've learned how to crochet, how to knit, I'm doing cross stitching now, collage, painting, watercolors, acrylics, origami. Honestly, like anything with your hands. I love, I love expressing myself like that. I love the act of learning. So, yeah, I think I have a lot of feelings about creativity.
Ella 18:15
You touched on so many great points. I'm trying to figure out where to start. Yeah, I definitely relate to sort of like you need to do one thing. Because, yeah, I think it all sort of falls under the umbrella of capitalism. I think it's kind of like, you do a thing, you do it well, and that's the thing you're known for forever. And growing up, I really struggled with that, because initially, when I was really young, I wanted to be an artist, and that kind of evolved into photography. But then I also knew I always wanted to do writing. But then when I went to uni, and I sort of got introduced to amateur dramatics and stuff like that, that actually sort of in an indirect way, introduced me to stand up comedy. And I do stand up sometimes, not professionally, but like, when I can find an open mic, and I run an open mic in Sheffield as well, specifically for queer people. And that's a really nice creative outlet as well. So I have all these amazing little pockets of stuff, which is really nice and really fun, but then sometimes I'm just like, ‘what if it's too much? Like, how do I tell people what I do, what I do, so many things?’ But I agree. I think it is a superpower to have all of these different passions.
Kal 19:35
Yeah, for sure. I think that the opening line of my LinkedIn bio, which I've completely disregarded my LinkedIn profile at this point, but it basically says ‘Thriving as the creative Swiss knife that everybody told me not to be’, or ‘tThriving as the jack of all trades that they tried to get me to stop.’ So just finding a community of people who feel the same. Like, I've connected with so many people that have the same sort of narrative of like, I don't fit into a certain box and my whole life, I've kind of, I really put myself down because of that, and then and wasted so much time. But now that I've realized this, and I know how I function, it's so much easier to navigate, to navigate life.
Ella 20:24
Yeah, exactly. And yeah, I think also, like, this has also seeped into my work as a copywriter, because I don't really have a niche in, when people ask me, ‘oh, what kind of brands do you work for?’ And it's like, there's not really a common denominator, really, I've worked with a lot of, coaches, but even the coaches are very different in what they do. So it's kind of like, yeah, I don't have a specialty, just because I like working with lots of different people and embracing lots of different processes and stuff. Touching back on capitalism, and sort of like capitalizing on your hobbies. You've started crocheting. You can sell these and start an Etsy, and stuff like that. But I think it's so important to have hobbies that are like, just for you and just for enjoyment. And that's why, when I was announcing this podcast, I was like, you know, what are your hobbies that you know are just for you and not for public consumption.
Kal 21:33
I think that's so important 100% it's literally that way. It's not for public consumption, because as soon as the intention changes, the process is different. The equation is different. The result is different. So, I mean, I could be making a fun little crochet elf doll just for me, and I'm just going to put it on my shelf at home, or whatever if I'm making it, because I'm going to sell it. Like the experience of making it is completely different. It's not, you know, a nice meditative repetition, pattern with my hands where I can zone out. It's like, no, come on, we’ve got to make the something, like this order needs to go out. So I think it's, yeah, the intention going into the creative process, I think, is everything. And it's, again, like you mentioned, it's so important for us to make it a point to create these spaces where this creativity is just for me.
Ella 22:29
I also liked what you said about the self-discovering and healing aspect. And you know, we can definitely discover more of ourselves as we create and do creative hobbies. And it's also very healing. But I also liked how you said, but sometimes it is nice just to do something and learn something and not have it mean everything. Because I think we can get into this like, self-development trap almost, where it's a good thing, but it can also be a bit too much. It's kind of like, you know, we're going to therapy, we're reading self-help books, we're doing this, we're doing that. We're using the term narcissist in the wrong way, like doing all of these different things to better ourselves, which is great, but I think sometimes it's okay to just be and just enjoy and just live in the moment.
Kal 23:18
Yes, 100%. And lo and behold, I'm gonna bring back capitalism one more time. But that's just what happens, like just how creativity is capitalized, self-help is capitalized, and becoming better is capitalized, right? It is an industry. We're reading these books because we're getting fed these messages that we're not good enough, or we need to be a certain way, or we need to do this, or we need to do that. It's not coming from a genuine like, ‘Oh, I've had a revelation about my life and I feel like I need to do a little bit of internal work and do something’ when it's like that, again, the intention is different, right? I'm not I'm doing it because I've had this discovery. I'm not doing it because I saw a crackpot Instagram quotation that sent me off the rails. But yeah, I hear that. I hear that a lot, and that resonates with me a lot. It's not everything needs to mean something. And personally, me coming just being a person who was a really anxious, overthinker, mega overanalyst, disaster thinker. So that speaks a lot to me, right? Because I tend to relate my thing, my creations like, okay, everything needs to mean something, and if it didn't mean something while I was making it, I need to now sit back and analyze what it means. And why did I make that and why have I written this? Or why did this picture look a certain way? Whereas we don't need to do that. Sometimes it's just a release. Sometimes we need to do things just for the sake of doing, that's what's healthy about it.
Ella 25:00
Yeah, exactly. I think that's why adult coloring books became a thing, like mindfulness and getting into the moment, and drawing some pretty pictures, coloring in some pictures. And it's just a nice way to, sort of escape. I actually recently started making bracelets, you know, just tacky little friendship bracelet kind of things, just because I was like, I need something to do with my hands that involves not looking at a screen and stuff like that. Because I don't really like paint or anything as much anymore, but I was like, I just need something to do with my hands. And this just feels really fun and brings me back into childhood and stuff like that. And I can watch TV if I want while I'm doing it, but I can also just look at it and just like, do these little things.
Kal 25:50
Yeah, 100%. You should try cross-stitching. I'm having a great time with embroidery and cross-stitching at the moment. I feel for me as well, especially, whenever I've got a really repetitive task that I can do with my hands, like you said, I don't even need to watch TV, but it's a really good moment for me to compartmentalize my thoughts, or like process the day, or just think about things. You know, I could be doing the dishes, let's say, or I could be embroidering something, like, it's just an active meditative state, isn't it? Your body's kind of busy doing something so your mind is a bit more free to, I don't know, think about stuff.
Ella 26:40
Yeah, exactly. Something you also touched on was creativity being an act of procreation. And that reminded me, I read a book a few months ago because… Sort of side tangent, the novel I'm writing is about a single dad and a woman who's experiencing infertility, and she's also reckoning with does she even want to be a parent at all? So I was seeking, like, media and literature about single fathers specifically, but also about fertility and about parenthood in general. And I came across a book called Motherhood by Sheila Heti, and she's a writer, and her husband's an artist. And I didn't like the book, but there were some points that I really resonated. And particularly, she was like saying about how, you know, if you're an artist or a writer or creative, you're always actively creating, so is the fact that I'm not like racing to motherhood because I'm already creating this separate thing? So when you mentioned like, this procreating thing, I was like, ‘Oh, wow.’ Because, I'm also someone that doesn't know if they want to have kids yet. I'm just like, maybe because of this thing I'm already creating, I'm already doing all this output, I don't have that sort of like, urge of like, I need to have kids.
I don't know that's a whole separate conversation, but I was just wondering if you had any sort of thoughts about that, because I don't know that just kind of like, pinged a little thing in my head.
Kal 28:18
Yeah, for sure. I think maybe at this point it'd be good to reference something like the book The Artist's Way, which is, of course, super overused and you know, take it with a grain of salt, of course. But I think the best thing that I got out of it was the kind of revelation that creation, in and of itself, is like a ‘divine act.’ You are creating. You are making something. It puts you in the shoes of a creator, right? And like heavy religious connotation aside, it's something that is a part of you, right? I don't think anyone can create something that is not somehow part of them. You're always going to be, there's always going to be a part of you that lives on in your creation, whether it's a child or, you know, a really cool painting, there's a piece of you in there. And I've never personally made the correlation between having or not having kids and creating, because I also don't know if I want kids. I thought I wanted kids for a bit, and then I spent a month at a friend's house and they had newborn kids, and at the end of the month, I was like, ‘Yeah, I don't think I want kids. Like, I'm good. I've got three dogs.’ So, yeah, I don't know, but it's a really interesting point to think of. I feel like that's such a mega big conversation.
Ella 30:05
Absolutely, it just came into my mind. And of course, there are writers and creatives who have families and have kids and stuff. It’s not a straight line kind of thing, but I just thought it was so interesting, and it reminded me of that book. Yeah, kind of crazy book, because it was part fiction, but also part about her life, but you don't know which parts are fiction and which are nonfiction. So I think that was super cool but I think it's also like, what bothered me is because I found her quite annoying, and I was like, what parts of this is real and which are fake? But it definitely raised some really interesting points that have stayed with me. And I think art is supposed to make you think, so it's done its job.
Kal 30:52
It's done its job, yeah. The unreliable narrator made you think.
Ella 30:56
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So in terms of creativity, being a copywriter is an inherently creative job, and you also do branding and stuff like that. What's your creative process when it comes to work, and how is it different from your hobbies and your theater stuff?
Kal 31:17
So I think at its core, I liken a lot of my process to my process with theater. So for me, when I'm creating a brand voice or thinking up a brand identity, it's a lot like creating a character on stage, right? Like, the more specific you get into it, the more real it's going to become so when you're doing character work on stage. For example, there is tomes and tomes and tomes of information about this character that you know, that the audience is never going to know about. But like, it makes you a bit more realistic.
I don't know, let's say your character had a car accident a couple of years ago, and he broke his wrist, and so he holds glasses in a little bit of a weird way, because he's got this wrist pain. Nobody's ever gonna know about that, right? But it adds a layer of dynamicism and something that's a bit more interesting and a bit different.
So I tackle that process quite similar to that, and world-building as well of like, “Okay, how does this character relate to the world.” And in specific to copywriting, when we're talking about brand voice and tone of voice guidelines, or like brand style guidelines. Again, this is super similar to me of like, doing script work, breaking down every single line. Where are my beats? Where do I breathe? Where do I stop? What's my motivation behind each line? What's the subtext?
So it really makes you think, like, "Okay, why are you writing this? Like, what does the sentence mean? What do you want the reader to do? You want them to buy something. You want them to think about something specific. Are you trying to stir up a specific emotion that you're going to connect to something later on?
As much as it is a creative act, I think there's a lot of technicality and maybe preciseness at some stages of the development. And I love that you said that that copywriting is like a creative act in of itself, because I'm sick of arguing with people online that copywriting is just technical and it's about sales, and there's no place for creativity and copywriting, which is a load of crap, if you ask me.
I think now more and more we're seeing this renaissance of, what do people want brands to be like? Are we still associating ourselves with these big, massive brands that are going to give me a standard of beauty and a standard of how to act and how to be and what I should own. Or are we now maybe taking a step back towards community and humanity and connecting with small creators and small businesses and really being invested in other people's stories and cutting out all that stuff in between.
I think that's really important to how I tackle copywriting. Because, yeah, for sure, if you go to my page like it's not a very conventional copywriting page, and I try to have most of the work that I do be non-conventional. But sometimes you’ve got to do conventional work, like it is what it is. Yo’veu got to put the corporate hat on.
But I always try to give myself as much room for drawing inspiration from different spaces. So I can't tell you that I've got a really specific method when it comes to working. I always start with research, always. So I think that's the only constant, I'll start with research, whether it's a Wikipedia search or I'm watching a film that's relevant. Or if I'm reading a book that maybe has certain themes, or sometimes inspiration comes from nowhere, right? Like I'll be in bed reading my just for pleasure book, you know, nothing to do with work and there's something in the book, there's like a word or something a character says in a special way, or a turn of phrase, and I'm like, okay, got it. Like, that's gonna fill that gap of that really annoying Instagram caption that was writing.
And I feel like inspiration is everywhere, and I kind of try to give myself that space to do it. So I recently got some hate for this on Instagram. I kind I talked about the 12 brand archetypes, the Jungian archetypes, and how we use them for branding, and how I was sick of them and sick of using these archetypes, and they were so boring. And I was like, let's try to do something different.
So I created these 22 brand archetypes based on the 22 Major Arcana cards from the tarot, which I thought was super fun. And I was like, Guys, it's just a creative exercise. And I had people coming in, like, “how dare you use branding language in the Tarot, it's such a sacred art. I was like, I'm just talking about inspiration. Inspiration is everywhere. You need to get it and do something with it.
Honestly, I don't know of a more maybe creative act than the tarot. It's cards, it's visuals you're creating, you're talking, you're telling a story. Like, why not bring that to branding? So yeah, I think I like finding different inspiration points for different clients and things that I'm working on.
I love making really specific conceptual playlists on Spotify that have everything to do with the brand. So, like, I was writing some copy for a baby boutique, and I was completely just listening to baby tunes and like little lullabies and sing alongs and stuff like that. I create these playlists, and I always send them out to my clients, just like, “This is what I'm listening to while I'm working on your stuff.” And it's not things that I would listen to on my day to day, you know, or something that I would listen to again.
But I think this also comes from the theater a lot, because, like when we're devising physical work on stage, so much of it comes from music, right? So they'll put a track on, more often than not, instrumental, and you kind of just go with the feelings that it gives you. The music takes you to places. I think it's also an emotional creative act. So music is a big part music.
Ella 38:25
I love that. That's so good because music is so emotive. So I can definitely see how I can sort of put you in a certain headspace when you're working on a project. Yeah. And I loved how you infused Tarot into branding, even if it made people mad. I think people just don't like when what they believe is challenged.
Because I wrote a post a few weeks ago, just because I'm doing some business coaching at the moment, and I'm sort of like talking about what I want and what I don't want. And I remember because my coach gave me a form to fill out. And one of the questions was like, “What do you want your leadership to look like?” And I didn't really know how to answer that. So I was like, Okay, I'll start with what I don't want.
And one of the first things I wrote was, “I don't want to work on a beach” because I feel like you see on Instagram all the time, like in the online business space, it's “you can work in the beach, you can travel around Asia, you can do this, you can do that.” And I think that's wonderful for other people, but I think I'm such like a homebody that I just like being like at home, and when I'm traveling, and seeing people, I want to do that. I don't want to work while I'm traveling. And then when I'm home, I can be home and I can, like, you know, do that kind of stuff.
So yeah, I wrote this post of being like, I don't want to work on a beach. I don't want to make a million dollars. I don't want to be a CEO. I just want to have my nice little life that feels really big, because I like it. And I want more people to talk about that.
Most of the reactions were great, but like, I feel like a lot of people felt very challenged. Like, “well, I want to make a million dollars. I want to do this.” And I was like, that's good for you. For me, I don't want that. And I want you to do whatever makes you happy. I'm doing what makes me happy.
And I think it probably does still come down to capitalism. You're told to make a lot of money, you need to do this, you need to do that, you need to follow these, like rules and stuff like that. And it's fine if you do genuinely want that. But then I think as soon as someone challenges that aspect, people don't always like that.
Kal 40:39
Yeah, I think, actually, that was the thread that I first saw when I connected with you on Threads, if I'm not mistaken. I very vividly remember that thread, and I was like, 100% those like, yes, for sure. I've done a similar post, I think, on Instagram, where I was like, when you work remotely like people, this is where people think you work from. And it was like a video of the beach and the mountains. And I was like, this is where you're actually working from. And it was like the kitchen, the living room, the bedroom, the toilet. And, yeah, I feel that so much.
Like I love the freedom that this nature of work gives me. Like I could be on the beach if I wanted to. I can not, you know, could be in the living room, could be hiking in the mountain as long as I've got a good phone reception. And I think that's the best part of it for me. It's the freedom aspect.
Ella 41:48
Yeah, exactly. So that's all, freedom looks different for everybody.
Kal 41:54
I think people online are, they're so, I mean, you know, not to talk shit about people online, but I think sometimes people are so set on purposely misunderstanding what you're saying. Because I don't even, I don't even think it has anything to do with you. More often than not, these people just have some kind of anger inside and they need like confrontation to release, right? It's a creative act for them, like they're creating this, this whole comment drama over nothing, and at the end of the day, like, what happens? They're gonna feel better because they released it. And if we don't take care of how we react, we're gonna end up frustrated that we had this horrible interaction, or we can just lull about it and be like, listen, everybody needs to calm down. This is just the internet.
Like I did a post yesterday on Threads where I was talking about not niching down and niching up instead. Like everything that we've spoken so far about, the multipotentialite, and not putting yourself in a box. Coming from the most relaxed person in the world, like, I try my best to work four, five hours days max, working from the couch, like I don't take anything extra, like I'm so not hustle. And someone just reshared my post and said, “Nope, this is hustle. Hustle culture rebranded.” I was like, What? No, that's 100% not it. So, yeah, we we need to be careful with how we take our online interactions with people.
Ella 43:36
Yeah, absolutely. I think I saw something similar, where someone said, like, “oh, the soft girl life isn't for me.” And I saw like, someone like, reply to it being like, “I think you should really think about, why that is.” Because, for me, soft girl doesn't mean not working at all. I would be bored of out of my mind if I didn't do anything. But it's just kind of like, you know, not doing more than you need to do. And I almost said, ‘work smarter, not harder’, but like, yeah, just making use of your time. And I'm still, even four years into working for myself, figuring out a routine and a schedule that works for me. It changes weekly, but yeah, it's just figuring out what works for you.
Some seasons will be hustle seasons, but some seasons will be a little bit softer and a little bit more mellow. And it's just about that balance and finding out what's for you. Because again, capitalism will just make you think you have to work 24/7, and I don't think we need to do that.
Kal 44:46
I love how quickly this has turned into an anti capitalist podcast. I'm so here for it. But yeah, this is, I think you said something that's so important, which is we need to figure things out for ourselves. Especially as creatives, but also creatives who are doing their own thing. It's so important for you to figure out what works for you, what feels good in your body, what feels good in your mind, what fits into your schedule because you're already putting all this effort into building something that's yours and that's for you. So, you know, often build it the way that you want, like, make it exactly how you want.
I think you really hit the nail on the head there with that one. So, yeah, figure out what you want to do, kids. Put effort into figuring out your own ways of doing things, and don't listen to angry strangers on the internet, especially not angry strangers who are, like, supposedly marketing strategists, but have like two followers. Come on, pick your battles.
Ella 45:57
Yeah, yeah. I'm gonna do a whole different episode about this. But like, I'm seeing this huge, quote, unquote, ‘digital marketing ‘trend where it's like, sort of like these faceless accounts saying, ‘buy this course from me about how to create a course, and then you'll make so much money.”
And it's like, in theory, sure, but it's so much more complex than: create a course, sell it, become a millionaire. I definitely want to do an episode, sort of debunking that, but then also providing a realistic of like, this is how, like you actually do it. Because it doesn't happen overnight.
Kal 46:37
I honestly say, I would say, like 90% of course, creators right now, at least the ones that are really in the limelight, they do absolutely nothing besides how to sell a course. That's it. The reason they have money is because people like us, who don't know marketing schemes get wrapped in and we buy their course. They literally do nothing. They're just selling a course about how you can or cannot make money. Like, where’s the proof? Everything's fake. Like, “I make 10k months” and, “oh, my God, I've made 75 million for my clients.” Like, show me the bank statement. Give me your bank statements. I want to see proof.
But nobody, you know, it's marketing. That's how it is. So, yeah, please, please do a debunking episode.
Ella 47:29 I would love that. Yeah, absolutely.
As we're winding down. So this podcast is called Everybody is a Creative because I genuinely believe most, if not all, people are creative in some way. Because I think creativity is so much more than just like painting or drawing . And I think especially if you own a business, you're a business owner, that is creativity in itself, because you know you're solving problems, which requires creative skills. And I really love talking to people who don't identify as creative and be like, Oh no, but you are quite creative because of this and this and like, seeing, like, the wheels turn.
So my question for you is, what would you, you know, tell someone who doesn't identify as creative, like ways that they can sort of start switching up their perspective and adopting the sort of creative label?
Kal 48:26
Interesting. It's a good question. I'm trying to think of something that maybe could be applicable to a lot of people.
I think the first step is to maybe just take a step back and look at what you're doing with, um, different a different perspective or different eyes. So I had a similar conversation, let's say, with my mom recently, who is a lawyer, and I just brought to her attention. I was like, you're thinking of these, like, really intense clauses. Of like, you're thinking of all the possible ways that you can protect your client. Like, this is a creative act. Like you're using your imagination. You're creating scenarios just like, oh yeah. And think of it like that. So I agree with what you said about I think everybody is a creative and I think everybody creates. I don't think anyone doesn't create, double negative there, but I don't think anyone doesn't create in their day to day. Um, I think maybe most people don't realize that they're creating or that they're being creative. So, um, yeah, I think take a step back and look at things with a different perspective, with a different pair of eyes.
Ella 49:47
Nice. I love that. Okay, and then for you, what one creative thing you're going to do this week that you're excited about?
Kal Kadri 49:56 Oh, God, well, I was supposed to be traveling to. Berlin tonight to see chapel Roan. And I just found out this morning that they postponed the concert. It's been one of those days. What am I doing this week? My friends are getting married next week, and I'm in charge of doing all the fun creative like print bits for the wedding. So I'm gathering all those things and finalizing those little bits. So that's, that's what I'll be doing.
Ella 50:27
Amazing I love it.
Kal 50:28
How about you? What are you going to be doing this week?
Ella 50:32
Well, I'm going to try and tackle a bit more of my novel. Yeah, because I've been trying to write a novel for many years, on and off, but last year started taking it more seriously and started, like, plotting it beginning to end, and then just like, taking time to, like, write when I can. I think what I'm coming to realize is, like, summertime isn't really the best time for me to, like, sit down and write, which I think is why, for the last like couple months, I've been struggling. But no, this weekend, I'm going to really sit down and just like be with my book, be with my characters, because it's been a long time, I need to pay them a visit.
Kal 51:10
Amazing, fantastic.
Ella 51:13
Well, thank you so much. Do you want to tell the people where to find you?
Kal 51:18
Yes, so you can find me on Instagram. At words, hurt, dot copy and on threads, I believe, under the same username, but Instagram will connect you automatically. I'm much more unhinged on threads. So if you're looking for unhinged, go to threads, and if you're looking for anything else, find me on Instagram.
Ella 51:39
I love that, man. Thank you so much.
Kal 51:41
Thank you so much for having me, Ella. This was really, really lovely. What a great end to my day.
